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10 October 2008 @ 11:10 am
weekly doctor/rose moment #8  
I've posted a moment from this scene before, but this is a different bit of dialogue and I think this particular quote is even more relevant now considering the events of Journey's End.
title or description
Rose: I thought you and me were... but I obviously got it wrong. I've been to the year five billion, right, but this... now this is really seeing the future. You just leave us behind. Is that what you're going to do to me?
The Doctor: No. Not to you.
Kat: tv. dw | as near as it is fartakethewords on October 10th, 2008 03:24 pm (UTC)
Can I get that in writing, Doctor? :P
Stephanie Bakerkyrina on October 10th, 2008 10:12 pm (UTC)
Yeah, never trust a Time Lord without having a contract to back you up in case of negligent abandonment in alternate realities.
♥: sarabrokendartist on October 10th, 2008 03:38 pm (UTC)
and that's excactly what he did :(
Principia: DW - 4.13 JE Doc II Rose Come A Little Cprincipia on October 10th, 2008 04:11 pm (UTC)
Say what you want about Doomsday or JE, but neither of those constituted just leav[ing her] behind.
Diana: Human Forever - Doctor/Rosebutterfly on October 10th, 2008 04:16 pm (UTC)
Agreed. In JE, it was clearly an insanely tough thing for him to do and, also, he was right there with her as well. It was complicated and he was being something of an idiot, but he was also acting out of his deep love for her under the constraints of having no time, wanting her to be happy, and being utterly terrified about the big issue that he mentions in this SR conversation -- the idea of watching her grow old and die while he has to go on without her.
Principia: DW - 4.13 JE Rose Doc II In a Clinchprincipia on October 10th, 2008 04:30 pm (UTC)
I suspect that, had Who never gone off the air (or more realistically, had come back after the TV movie and never gone off since) and thus Christopher Eccleston and David Tennant were the 12th and 13th Doctors instead of the 9th and 10th, RTD might have been able to give us a very literal interpretation of the Doctor and Rose walking off into the sunset together. Given the constraints of the storytelling within the framework of an ongoing series that does not change its lead character, this was as close as he could get.

Of course, were DT playing the last Doctor, he probably would've behaved rather differently on multiple counts, under the belief this was his last incarnation (whether that's actually true or not; the current TPTB indicated that they thought the 13-incarnations-limit was something self-imposed and enforced by the Council and now that they're gone, it may no longer exist).
Diana: For You -- Doctor/Rosebutterfly on October 10th, 2008 04:48 pm (UTC)
One of the things that I was unsurprised to see RTD mention in his new book was that, much as he loved writing DW, he couldn't keep on forever writing characters that didn't belong to him. If both the Doctor and Rose had been his very own characters, with no obligation to pass the Doctor on to someone else, then I have no doubt that we would have had a D/R ending that encompassed all of the Doctor being with Rose.

Edited at 2008-10-10 04:49 pm (UTC)
Stephanie Bakerkyrina on October 10th, 2008 10:14 pm (UTC)
The long living issue is an interesting one that comes up a lot more in fantasy (in my experience than sci-fi), and yet it's amazing in that elves seem to not give their humans clones of themselves to keep.
Dianabutterfly on October 11th, 2008 07:47 am (UTC)
The stress caused by that conflict exists in most of those stories, though (like in LotR, when Arwen says in the movie!verse -- "I would rather spend one lifetime with you than face all the ages of this world alone."). Doctor Who has several unique properties that prevent a more conventional 'happy ending', most notably the fact that RTD had to 'give back' the Doctor at the end of his run.

It seems to be generally agreed by most immortal characters that watching the people you care about age and die in front of your eyes sucks a whole lot. And, to be frank, I can't imagine that there isn't a bit of bitterness and envy in the half of the pairing that gets older and dies (as it goes from 'oh, he's your boyfriend' to 'ah, that must be your son' to 'your grandson is so sweet, to be traveling with you'.

The Doctor notices, in JE, that Rose is tempted by the notion of a Doctor who will grow old with her. I mean, of course, she is. Doing things together is completely part of their identity as a couple and this is something that they were incapable of doing together. Until now. The second version of the Doctor can give her something that the first version can't. The same argument that says that Nine and Ten both love Rose also means that Ten II loves Rose just as much -- memories and feelings have translated over in both cases. He is the Doctor, just with a human heart and a little of Donna stuck on top. Certainly less of a personality change than Nine to Ten.
claidi: 10rose - *snogs*claidissa on October 10th, 2008 06:26 pm (UTC)
I agree!
Journey's End may have been something that he thought was right and didn't really give her a choice in the matter, but she certainly wasn't left behind.
Flying Mint Bunny: normal 42haro on October 10th, 2008 06:27 pm (UTC)
Yes, this.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on October 10th, 2008 06:41 pm (UTC)
So agreed. In both he was trying to give her best, brightest shot at happiness. ESPECIALLY in JE.
Shaela Scanlonmls03j on October 11th, 2008 10:28 am (UTC)
irreconcilable differences
I think this is one of those things that we’re going to have to agree to disagree on. Some people think that Rose chose to stay in Pete’s World with the duplicate Doctor. Others (myself included) think that the original Doctor trapped her there against her will. And at this point, I don’t think either group is likely to change their minds.

On the other hand, it seems clear that the original Doctor has chosen to be alone, post-“Journey’s End.” I don’t think anyone would disagree with that. And that, to me, was one of the main points of that scene (and “School Reunion” as a whole)—that Ten’s loneliness is at least partly a self-inflicted wound.
Principiaprincipia on October 11th, 2008 03:10 pm (UTC)
Re: irreconcilable differences
I think this is one of those things that we’re going to have to agree to disagree on.

So you believe it was a casual, out of hand decision that he made to just, well, leave her by the side of the road like an unwanted pet? I didn't say that it was entirely her choice, nor would I argue that even if staying in the PW with Ten II was the choice that she would have made, that Ten I gave her a fair chance to say that and to give him a proper goodbye.

I think RTD was very clear in outlining one of the differences between Ten I and Ten II during that scene - which was that Ten II offered himself to her, but outright stated that it was up to what she wanted. For him, it was her choice to make—and that's arguably an element of his character that is attributable to Donna's influence in his makeup.

I'm not altogether surprised that Ten I, who seems rather certain he doesn't deserve happiness, would have done what he did. Setting aside the separate issue of Donna, he was going to end up feeling guilty and miserable in some respects no matter how it resolved.

The fact that Doctor!Donna seemed unsurprised and didn't even argue with him one bit was a bit surprising, except that we find in the next scene that Donna's basically been overrun by the Time Lord essence in her mind... which means Ten I was firmly convinced that this was what needed to be done, whatever his reasoning.

And if you don't mind my saying, you've been continuously complaining about Ten's character and therefore much of the entire storyline of the show since early in Series 2, so I have more than a little difficulty in not chalking your opinion up to the fact that you seem to have intensely disliked Ten for almost his entire tenure.

Edited at 2008-10-11 03:13 pm (UTC)
Shaela Scanlonmls03j on October 11th, 2008 04:03 pm (UTC)
Re: irreconcilable differences
So you believe it was a casual, out of hand decision that he made to just, well, leave her by the side of the road like an unwanted pet?

No. Where we part company, I think, is that I don’t agree that his intentions excuse his actions. (To quote Jim Butcher, “There’s some old chestnut about good intentions serving as base level gradient on an expressway that goes somewhere, but I can't remember the specifics right now.”)

And if you don’t mind my saying, you’ve been continuously complaining about Ten’s character and therefore much of the entire storyline of the show since early in Series 2.

Well, yes. I’ve been complaining about Ten’s character since “School Reunion.” That’s when I started to suspect that he’d knowingly left Jack behind (which he had), and that he’d eventually do the same thing to Rose (which he did). I see a pattern of behavior that I think makes the Doctor less sympathetic as a character. Again, this is one of those things that we’re going to have to agree to disagree on.
Principiaprincipia on October 11th, 2008 04:15 pm (UTC)
Re: irreconcilable differences
Where we part company, I think, is that I don’t agree that his intentions excuse his actions.

When did I say that? I didn't. If your belief is that anyone who refuses to hate on Ten thinks that all of his actions are always justified, then you're just putting words in people's mouths to suit the cut-and-dried nature of your personal opinion.

That character flaw, by the way, applies to Nine as much if not more than Ten, because he's the one who first sent Rose away, and he's the one who left Jack behind on the Game Station. Not Ten.

In which case I'm not really sure what you're getting out of a show where you can't stand the character who's supposed to be the protagonist.
boycotting FOX because they terminated T:SCC.: 10-rosexbriyeon on October 10th, 2008 09:44 pm (UTC)
*dies* Oh. >_
Annissaannissa on October 11th, 2008 04:03 am (UTC)
I actually don't like this quote.. I just thought it was kind of an insult to the other companions *shrugs*
The Smallest Person: tenrosebitwhizzle on October 11th, 2008 04:18 am (UTC)
*insert bawling here*
Shaela Scanlonmls03j on October 11th, 2008 10:34 am (UTC)
I’m torn between wanting to cry and wanting to throw things.

(This scene is where Ten lost me, the first time I watched season two. I tried to tell myself that I was seeing things that weren’t there, but “Journey’s End” wasn’t nearly as surprising as it would’ve been, before “School Reunion.”)
chief dramatist: Dw; The sky is falling;link_woman on October 11th, 2008 06:46 pm (UTC)
Favorite moment. He's so convinced that he's not going to leave her. D: